For this final session of day two of the 20-25 Widening Fellowship launch, we're going to have what I call a master class in newsroom leadership. When I started doing my prep work for this session specifically, I realized that as I read through the accolades and the expertise and the experiences of our speaker, Suki Dardarian, I realized that all of the lessons that I learned from some of the best people that I knew in journalism about how to succeed, how to build alliances, she embodies in her work. It quite literally would take us all session for me to go through her entire bio. Right. I'm that old. You should know two things. One, that she just recently retired as the editor and senior vice president of the Minnesota Star Tribune. But she is also the National Press Foundation Benjamin C. Bradley Editor of the Year for 2024. And we will see her receive her award tonight at the awards dinner. So let's give her a round of applause. It's a huge deal. Thank you. But the other important thing you need to know was that during this prep call, Suki said, 'I need to have somebody here sitting beside me during this session.' And I said, 'Who is that?' She tells me about a woman who was in the newsroom during the George Floyd uprising, which the Star Tribune won the Pulitzer for. And she told me about this photojournalist at the time who she was able to or I think you took the initiative to come to her and say, 'Audiences aren't being heard. People in the community aren't feeling recognized, etc.' And she said the journalists need to hear from Kendall Harkness. Kendall Harkness is now the head of culture and community at the Minnesota Soda Star Tribune, and you're in management, essentially. Yeah. And I want to talk with you about because I've resisted management for the past 40 years. So many people resist management. But I want to talk with you about having made that transition. But I think this is a perfect example of Suki's brand of leadership throughout her career. She leads, but also brings people along. She's supported people. She's given them the sense and the energy that their contribution matters, certainly must have guided her through leading to Pulitzer Prize-winning teams, one at the Seattle Times and one at the Minnesota Star Tribune. So it is indeed my pleasure and honor to have her join us today to talk about her career, about her lived experience, and how she and Kendall work together to respond to community needs in Minneapolis. Thank you both so much for joining us today. It's our pleasure. Thanks for having us. It's our pleasure. One of the things that we like to do in all of our sessions is focus on lived experience and just really give everybody a grounding about who they're meeting and whatever. So why don't we start with you, Suki. Tell us about your backstory, your origin story, and how you came to journalism. Sure. You're right. It would take the whole hour to go through. But suffice to say that I grew up in California, ended up moving to Washington after some family bumps and went to the University of Washington while I was in high school. I went from San Francisco to a small town called Chehalis in the early 70s, and that was a culture shock, you know, for me, but I found my path in school, in high school, working at the university. And that's where I got my first sort of round of adrenaline from doing journalism, and the principal had come up to me and said, 'There are just too many girls getting pregnant, and you should do something about this.' And I'm like, 'Well, what? It's not my fault.' And then I got to thinking about it, and I talked to my aunt who I was living with. I had a friend that ran Planned Parenthood, so I went and interviewed her, and then I did an editorial saying, look, abstinence is one path, but also if you're not going to practice abstinence, birth control is another path. And that was really it. And parents were upset. The superintendent of schools was upset. They took the paper. I was a junior and we were going to be or I was a senior. We were going to have the paper. For the whole year, they took the paper away from us and gave it to the juniors. It was just not the kind of thing that parents needed to read in the newspaper, especially when it was time for the school levy. And I remember being so ticked off. And it was like that was my first spark of my path and justice and fairness. And, of course, when you're in your teenage years, everything is unfair. But that was the first spark. But I didn't really totally kick into gear. Until I went to college at Western Washington University and was looking for a job. So I volunteered to be a proofreader to get some money. And I found my space. I found my people. I found my place, and eventually became editor there, and did some other sparky stories. Then I met a bunch of people at the University of Washington and went there and was editor there, ran against a guy for to be the editor of the paper, the UW Daily. And I won. I gave him a columnist, a column, and he's my husband now. We've been together more than 40 years. And then I was really mostly in the Pacific Northwest, internships, reporting jobs. I was mostly focused on like government and politics, and didn't branch out as much as I probably should have to other subjects. And as I'm hearing you all today talk about climate beats and reproductive rights, those beats didn't exist. When I was coming in, it was like city, county, you know, like just sort of nouns. But throughout the way, I loved reporting. I loved kind of having my being behind the scenes and my nose kind of under the curtain. Still driven by what was fair and what was just and what was truth. And a fortunate, super fortunate, and I'll talk about this tonight, to work in places where people were very nurturing. Family-owned businesses, family-owned newspapers, you know, there was a real kinship and not as much disruption as there is today in the industry, but there was some. And along the way, I had the fortune of my very first full-time job, I had a female editor. And that was pretty rare. I noticed that when I covered the ASNE, American Society of Newspaper Editors Convention, which was in town, and I went to cover it, and I saw my diminutive editor standing there like this around all these really tall, mostly white guys. And it was like my first realization. I'd been in a family where women were very strong and leaders and ran the household. And so it actually surprised me to see that my having a female editor was rare. And I will tell you. That when I became the first female managing editor at the Seattle Times, somebody came in and gave me flowers and said, this is the first time there's been a woman in this office. And you know, she was crying, thank you for representing. And then still today, people say it to me. And so it feels like, when is that not going to be a rarity, but the people I was able to work for nurtured me. Encouraged me. They saw something in me. When I saw a problem and I suggested solutions, they'd give me the problem. And pretty soon they're like, hey, you want to be a city editor? You want to be an assistant city editor? It's like, that looks really boring. I'll try it. You know, I'll try it. And so it was along the way, it was always the tap, tap, tap on my shoulder. And I didn't, even though I had been an editor in college, I hadn't really aspired to be an editor. And in fact, when I came to the Star Tribune, I just wanted to work at a place that did great journalism, and there was a great job open, and I loved the people, and I thought it would be great. And maybe that's a piece of leadership: you actually need to do it for the work. I had a friend along the way who really wanted to be an editor because he wanted an office where he could hang his awards on the wall. And I thought, well, that's not leadership. No. No. No. But it was interesting because Kendall and I were talking about this moment today, and we were talking about, I told her the headline of the session, and it was like, okay, masterclass, huh? But then we started talking about our paths, and it struck me that we had different paths. Kendall is a person who knew what she wanted to do, who discovered what she wanted to do, and then she. Okay. Yeah. And so she began trying to create that life for herself. And I just kind of like to pass it to Kendall because there's like a really cool intersection there. Yeah. So for me, so I'll work with that sort of connection and then sort of move back. But yeah, I'm talking about leading from the follower's position, like so many times people, so I was a photographer for a long time and then a photo editor. Yeah. And every job I had, people were like, 'Well, when are you going to basically, when are you going to be a boss, like when are you going to be a photo editor, when you're going to lead?' And I'm like I don't feel like I know enough I I don't feel like like I have enough information; I'm not done taking pictures. Like, I haven't seen enough of humanity to be able to lead people in the right direction.' But they kept asking, and at some point, I came to the realization is that I was already doing that – leading. I was helping get my peers together because they've been complaining about one particular thing or another, and I'm like, 'Okay, so what's the solution? Let's figure it out.' And I'd get folks together, and they move in a direction; and I would do this for we had, I don't know, like other like industry stuff so like, the state. contest I would run that run that for five years and it was just like oh you know I'm just getting people to move in there mentoring program mentoring programs all the stuff so at some point I realized that okay I need to listen to these voices that keep telling me that this is the path and then I'm already doing it so what does that mean and so how do I want to lead where does that lead and what does that mean and so how do I want to lead where does that lead and what does that mean and so how do I want to lead where does that go to and what is that job and I realized that job hadn't been created go to and what is that job and I realized that Job hadn't been created like, how do you get a newsroom at the unique position for me as a photographer? That everybody is in my seat all the reporters are in my seat complaining about God only knows what this I can't believe we're doing this story blah blah blah, my editor doesn't understand blah blah blah, and so you get to listen to that and then you're dealing with the designers and the other folks who are also saying different things right, and if you're paying attention you can see where the holes are in the game, how are we not connected, how are we not communicating in a real way with each other. And I'm like, I want to fix that but there's no job in a newsroom that actually helps people fix connections and so the first thing that I want to do is I want to connective tissue between us. And I was just like, I guess it's DEI work, but it kind of is more than that. And so there's Dushan Beyhos who is now the president of NPR. And he had left the paper and taken this job or he was at Bush. And I was just like, I know that I should be leading because I know that I can get people on the same page and help them move forward. But I need to figure out what that looks like. And so I went to Suki and went to the editor at the time Rene Sanchez. I was just like, I think I can do this kind of job. And he was just like, yeah, I don't know. We don't, I don't know what that really means. I can see what you're saying, but we don't need that right now, I don't think, right? Like I tried to talk to the bosses and they said no, right? And then George Floyd happens. Let me stop you right there because that's a powerful point in the story. But one thing I want to add to this conversation is 30 odd years ago, somebody gave me a piece of advice that I definitely try to share with women, but with everybody. If you could close the gap between the two of you, what would it be? And I think that's a really good question. If you could close the gap between how you see yourself and how the world sees you, you'd be invincible. And by saying that, it is, particularly women, we have the propensity sometimes to just think, I'm not ready yet, or I can't do this, or I need more education, or we use self-deprecatory. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. When people say, you got the right stuff. Maybe you say that to me all the time. You got the right stuff. You got something. And I would, I would just completely slap it aside. And so to hear someone like you and you, you know, in our prep conversation, I was like, the whole world is your oyster at this moment right now with the turbulence and what's going on in journalism right now. Journalism needs your mind. So after you have your spa days and your massages and you take a long vacation, if you want to get back into the mix, you can. But anywho, I say that to say that they're demonstrating that very powerful point. So before we get back to you and George Floyd, tell me about your view of the newsroom in terms of diversity and what was going on at the paper prior to George Floyd. Well, I had been very active in the industry in, I've named ASNE, which is dissolved and APME was another organization, Associated Press Media Editors that dissolved. But I was very active in that group and it had a group focused on diversity. And particularly I got involved very heavily in a program I helped fashion, which was called Time Out for Diversity and Accuracy. And the assertion that we were making was that, regardless of how you feel about diversity, it's a core value of journalism if you believe in accuracy and if you believe in inclusiveness in terms of audience. And you can't do that unless you practice that. And so how do we do that? And I learned a lot from other people in that. And there were a lot of people in the industry, Maynard Institute and a number of other organizations that really helped. Me, and other editors understand fault lines and coverage and how to have difficult conversations or even how to ask questions. But one of the key elements was that you have to have a diverse workforce. And so, that's always kind of been a value to me. And when I came to the Star Tribune, there was diversity, but I don't think there was a muscle around it. I think it was, there and um more accidental than yeah and I remember you know like meeting with Deshaun and having those conversations and just trying to find my way about like also Minnesota culture is you're nodding you know what I'm gonna say I don't know it's like it's it's um it's it's a kind of a passive aggressive place anyway and so to have all those conversations and to to get messy and all of that it's really hard to do that in Minnesota and in Minnesota while it might have diversity it is fairly integrated or segregated right and um and so I just was trying to learn about about Minnesota and the paper and and Kendall was actually one of the people who really helped me see things because she sat literally in the middle of the room and as an editor I'm trying to understand the room and I'm like what what is going on or she would come to Me, and say this is going on. Yeah, you might need to take a look at that. And I saw Kendall outside of her role as a photo editor. I think that's the other thing is that who are you supersedes what you're job is and that's what you want people to see in you and um they want you know I try and tell job candidates be authentic because that's you're going to eventually be authentic here and let's let's just do that now but but so when Kendall first spoke up she was looking at trying to do a fellowship or a grant program or a and she's she was making those sounds that you talk about and and we I think we did some applications oh yeah yeah um but It, but it to her point, it didn't have a form around it, and um, but more and more I could see that her value in the room was what other people had seen, which was she saw things in different ways and she saw perspectives and solutions and newsrooms as you well know are filled with people who blame each other for all the problems, it's the copy desk fault, no it's the writer's fault, oh it's the editor's fault, and you know Kindle had the ability to step back and say there's something missing here, and I think a good leader does that and says wait, you know we're all humans, we're all trying to do great journalism, why is this not working? Let's. Take personalities out of it, and trying to lead that newsroom through change because we were trying to transform like every newsroom, um, required people to kind of confront those challenges and Kindred was somebody who was able to do that on various planes and various levels. So tell us about the day the news broke, George, where were you? Yeah, I mean we're all at home right because it was a pandemic, yeah, and um, uh, yeah, it was something else like because we had Philando Cassie and Jamal Clark, and we've had a number of black men who have died at the hand of police, and this was for Philando. I had just moved to the Photo desk and so I was on the photo desk for Floyd and at home and I the question I had my mind is like black men died by the police all the time who is going to come out in a pandemic to to protest this right and it was everybody and I think that was the thing is that we were waiting to hear, I think Carlos was probably the first person on the scene after as a photographer who would I would be having contact with and I said like, what are the numbers look like and he said, 'He's like people are still coming.' And I was like, oh, okay, like brace yourselves. And it's just like anything, when there's a big news story, you don't know how big it is. You get into that mode of, okay, so how do we keep our people safe? And how do we get to the stories that we need to get to? And so we stayed on Zoom calls for forever. We would just open up a Teams meeting and just have it run while people worked. Everybody had TVs. So I was literally in my bedroom, like on the edge of the bed with like the TV tray, and just sort of like calling people and making sure folks were safe. But I think that piece about so I will, another lady thing again. But like, we win the Pulitzer, and then Sukie is like, 'Hey, you should come.' And I'm like, 'Wait, I was just, doing the photo.' I was just picking pictures with another person, like why? I kept on wondering why I was, the person she was, I know, I know. It makes no sense. But before you go forward, I want to pop back to Sukie and ask you, at what point did you realize the gravity of what was happening and realize that you needed an extra set of eyes and leadership? Well, I don't think there was a point. I think everybody just stepped in and did it. And, you know, Kindle's being authentic but modest, we were up all night and we actually literally had a team call that went 12 hours and you could just come in and go out. And so we spent all this time together. And during the day, the protests would be peaceful, and we would be working on the investigations, and the history, and the background, and you know, what was the third precinct, and what was Georgia's story, and just everything. And then at night. It just would, it became Armageddon. And buildings are burning, and people are, and the cops are shooting at our people. And it's like, and so it was, we just clung together, really. And the thing that was, that struck us the most, and this was before, like, we realized Baltimore is protesting or Philadelphia is protesting, right? Was. We can't fuck this up. If we get this wrong, if we get a fact wrong, if we characterize something wrong, it's like, it just, things explode, right? And it was already exploding. And so trying to bring the accurate context when it was super elusive and we were all, well, not all of us, but many of us were not out in the streets. You know, the reporters and photographers were and they were bringing things back. Right. So, like, going over. Photos. Going over headlines, stories. Everybody was in there and it was like, if you see something, say something. And this is not, nobody's going to take it personally. We can't screw this up. And so there was this real strong sense of team. And Kendall would raise questions. And other people would raise questions. She made it safe for people to raise questions. And it became this, this ethic. That we all had. And Kendall helped lead that ethic and there were others, too. And they, together, led this ethic of we have to do the right thing for this community. And that was an amazing space to be in. So let me then jump to you and ask you, was there a point at which you said this is an opportunity for me to demonstrate. A higher level of leadership or was it really just sort of, we're all in this together and I have something maybe to contribute and so did you foresee yourself winding up as the head of culture and community at the paper? No, no, no. You know, in that moment, it was, it was all hands on deck. And Suki was right. We couldn't get it wrong. And I have. You know. Yeah. You know, worked at newspapers, worked at this paper to know that tonally, we could miss. And like, and being the only black person at this meeting, like, I could not not say, okay, here, here's what I see from my experience. Let me tell you how this hits me. And I'm like, you can decide what you want to. We can decide as a group. We can decide as a group together. But let me tell you that this is how this feels or what I perceive the community might think about this. And, and so like having, having the, it was a comfortable space because this is, you know, this is where the rubber meets the road. If I don't say anything, nobody does. So, it was good. There wasn't a moment. It was just like, I needed to say what needed to be said. And I trusted the people in the room not to take that personally and, and I, I couldn't actually care if they did because it was that important. Right. We were all scared to death. Like this was, I know I was. Yeah. Oh crap. I'm running a meeting. We're deciding things. There are a lot of issues here. I need the right people in the room because I can't do this by myself. And I think maybe that's kind of the core of leadership. Yeah, knowing that you don't have the answers and that you don't have to have the answers. Right. I have to interject here because I think it's the core of women's leadership. I'm not, don't take this wrong, man. We have nine men this year, so I don't want to make y'all feel like I'm, you know, being mean or anything, but I'll give you a perfect example. I was able to write for National Geographic magazine because Susan Goldberg was in the meeting shortly after she started planning the global health issue for January of 2019. And she's sitting at a table and there are like 15 other people in the room, 13 of them are men and all of them were white. And she said, this isn't going to, it's not a good look for us. This is not going to work. She called her former colleague, Deborah. I don't know. Deborah Adams Simmons and said, Deborah, can you come and just spend six months helping me figure this out and get this picture straightened out? Deborah says, well, I know a woman who just spent nine years living in Kenya. She wrote about, or she helped journalists do a better job of reporting on health issues. She called me up and the rest was history. But. And again, no shade. But how often in those scenarios does a man think, 'I need someone, you know.' They might be a little bit more prone to think, 'I got this.' Am I being sexist here by saying that? Well, no, I don't know. I think, I think that I've got this tendency can happen in women too. And I, particularly new leaders, when, when people become it, there's always this, I don't know if you guys remember this or this still exists. But. When somebody first becomes a frontline editor, they like over edit, they're like, 'Ah, I think the lead should be this.' And don't you mean to say that? And it's just a little bumpy until like the reporter and the editor could kind of get in their groove and go, 'Now, listen, this is what I need and this is what I need.' But, but, but, you know, especially if you're new at it, I, I've seen that Susan's a great editor. And. And, uh, yeah, so I, I, it was, it was really this moment where we all needed to be good journalists together and challenge each other. If I hadn't had that background of a relationship with Kindle, and if Kindle hadn't had that relationship with other people in the room, vice versa, it, it, it might not have worked, right? People, I don't know what would have happened, but those underlying relationships were really important. Um, and then, and then we, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then we, as we caught our breath, then we were able to have the conversation about, okay, how are our people feeling? How are our people of color feeling? How do we navigate that? And I didn't have a clue. I really didn't have a clue. Right. And then she asked me. Right? She, she did the, she did the, you know, that's the part about you because you're a leader, it doesn't mean you're not curious. Um, if you stay curious, you are, um, you're in better shape, right? So she didn't know, so she's a reporter, she asked. And so she's like, 'How are the black journalists doing?' And I'm like, 'You know, I think I'm okay, but I'm like, well, hold on. I'm going to ask some people.' And so we got folks together to talk about, and I said, 'This is an opportunity that I haven't seen, but management is actually listening to how we're feeling.' So I said, 'We need to come up with something that says exactly what the temperature is in the room.' And so we gathered folks together, and we talked about it. I said, 'Okay, what are the issues we're having?' And so people shared. And I said, 'Okay, we need solutions to those.' Like, what are the systemic or the systematic things that we can put in place that actually help alleviate some of the pressures that folks are feeling? And so we. We brainstormed for about a week or so, two weeks, came up with a document that made sense. And then we came and talked to Renee and Suki and the publisher and said, like, here are what people have experienced. So we were able to give, like, actual examples of what folks had gone through. And these are not, because, you know, in every newsroom, you've got some whiny people, those squeaky wheels who are, like, complaining about everything every 10 seconds, no matter what they look like, right? These were not those people. These are people who get their job done, don't say a whole lot, but had experiences. And so we were able to give examples and then give solutions to those examples, right? It was interesting, too, because, like, in that discussion with the journalists of color, they were, like, so, you know, some folks were just, like, why can't they figure it out? Like, why do we need to come up with a solution? Why is it on us to do that work, right? And I said, well, you know, there's a good chance if they actually knew the solution, they would have done it. They don't know. It's their blind spot. So it's our job to sort of help guide them to a place where there can be harmony in how we do things. And so, like, we are giving them the tools to help us. And so that's what we need to do. So much wisdom here. I mean, I think what you've just said about the blind spots. Yeah. A good leader acknowledges and knows what his or her blind spots are. Right. But you're also modeling something that I've been talking about over the past couple of days in terms of mentor-mentee relationships, leveraging that access, acknowledging that you have it, and sort of realizing the potential that there is to make change. And that's what you did brilliantly. But before I open up the floor to questions, I want to ask you, Suki, in this moment, and put you on the spot: what does it feel like to be the editor of the year? I mean, you've had so many of these accolades throughout your career, but this is kind of a big one. It's a biggie. And it's – I was speechless. I got notified about this, it was like during the holidays, and I was trying to stay away from my email, and I kind of looked, and I saw something from the Press Foundation, and I'm like, are they soliciting something? But they don't contact me that much. I used to work a lot with the National Press Foundation when I was president of APME. And I opened it up, and I read, and I had to re-read it again. Yeah. And I'm like, 'Oh my word,' this is, and you know, you go, Rachel's right, you're always doubting yourself, and whether you're male or female, white or non-white, we all doubt ourselves a lot. Yeah. And I'm like, 'Oh my word'. And as my career was coming to a close, I was like, 'Oh my word, this is, this is, this close I was still doubting myself and um, could I have done what could I have done better? What you know, those things um, what did I not get done before saying I wanted to retire? So it was sort of like, 'You gotta accept this one, Suki. You just gotta own it' and yes, humility is good, but like, bask in it for a moment. So I'm trying to do that. It's still hard for me um, but it you know, I think it really didn't sink in a lot until we had our conversation because I didn't know Rachel, but we just immediately liked had this bond and began talking, and she gave me these great accolades, and I accepted them, and it was just phenomenal. And then uh, uh, uh like maybe less than a week later, Kendall and her wife came over for dinner, and I said, 'This thing is happening.' This thing with the National Press Foundation, they're apparently they're naming me editor of the year, and she said, 'Oh, is that happening I wondered if it would happen, and she said, 'I went what and she said no. I they called me, and I'm like, 'What.' And so it was, it was like this, this, like magical moment for me where um, and and then the first thing I thought was, 'Who set this up? You know, did my old boss set this up I got honored at my college um Hall of Fame. My daughter nominated me. I'm like, 'Does this my kid did my kid nominate so...'? It had to kind of go through that five stages of whatever, but I did also think about some advice from my friend Sharon Chan who um was at the Seattle Times and is now at the New York Times, and she reminded me of it later. But um, I had complimented her on something. And she responded by saying, 'Oh, it was nothing. Everybody else did all the work.' And I said, 'Well, that's acknowledging your colleagues is great, but this was a gift of compliment; this was a gift that was a compliment to you, and it's okay for you, it's good for you to accept this gift.' Um, and then I've been trying to practice that ever since because I realized I wasn't practicing it so that's sort of the short answer. Well, I knew I had arrived when Suki started stalking me on Facebook liking things. Let's start here, Nicole K Flyer NPR news. Such a special treat for me to meet both of you because um MPR is has been having meetings about. Um, commemorating the fifth year anniversary of George Floyd, and oh yeah, so I'm so excited and I think about having a few good things. We have reporters that are working on stories for that and have things planned, but obviously we look back toward that time and I'm just wondering, for me, lessons learned from doing that coverage and maybe what you wish you could have done differently or strengths and weaknesses that came out of being in the newsroom and doing that coverage. Does anything jump to your mind right away? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's anything. It was so reactionary in terms of like what we, it was reflexive because generally any sort of tragedy like that is going to be like you are, you're reacting to what you're seeing. But you know, yeah, I feel like we hit a lot of the things the way we needed it to. Just even, you know, from the visual side, we weren't just putting everything out there that people had photographed. Like we photographed all sorts of things. You know, there was a, somebody had knocked over an ATM machine and then had, there were kids with their hands going through, too. And we're just like, yeah, that's what we choose. To put not necessarily, not only in our paper on the website, but what we actually sent to the wires mattered. So, so we were really sort of thinking sort of globally, how do we want to represent what this story looks like and doing like a real edit, like, okay, like what is the truth and let's not get the things that could be inflammatory or distractionary, you know, a distraction away from it. Let's stay within our bubble of what we know is right and, and what is typical of what's happening and representative. So yeah, there were we had so many conversations. We talked about a lot of stuff and was very, and we were very open. And, and so like, I feel like we talked through the stuff that we needed to talk through. It was challenging because we had tons of story ideas. We didn't have tons of staff. Right. I mean, we, we did convert lots of people into story, into reporters on this story. We had graphic, the head of our design, digital design team was riding his bike around town. We were trying to map where the destruction had been and the third precinct and we were trying to, you know, so there were people being used in every different way. But it's funny when you, cause we've started looking back too. And we didn't do a lot of that. I mean, we, we did maybe for year one, but then it's kind of, we've, we've not looked back. And I actually think looking back right now is a good thing to do and five year anniversary is kind of a cliche, but, but if not that, would we not have been looking back? And so I feel like the things that we're doing and we've done a long way, but some that we're really definitively diving into. Now, I guess always look back as I guess my lesson is, is, um, there were so many stories and we couldn't get to them all in New York times and scoop us on the thing that we already knew we were doing and, you know, just trying to try and be present and pace ourselves. Um, but looking back, I think is really important. What did I have started looking back and, and have been really impressed, but we had a meeting, uh, folks just like one of those preliminary meetings. Everybody around the room, what are we thinking? Just like, let's start talking about, and nobody, people had some story ideas, but it was really, what are we thinking? What do, what do we want to do? What do we want to do? That's distinctive, that serves the community. We didn't kind of begin to lay some foundation and somebody said something about, we have to be careful that we really don't want to be triggering to the community. And then our new head of opinion, uh, African American man said, 'I think we do want to be triggering.' What is the moment to be triggering? What has changed? What has not changed? It was like the best conversation. So I think, I think looking back, being deliberate and having those conversations is, is the thing to do. Where you end up, you'll end up in a good place if you have those conversations. Let's pass the mic down this way. Thank you. Uh, my name is Lionel Ramos. I cover state government for KOSU, um, NPR member station in Oklahoma City. Thank you for making the time for this discussion because I am kind of in a weird position where I got hired on as the state government reporter last January. And in the job description, there is a line that says that I'm responsible for at least a to a degree, um, the coverage of our non-state house reporters as it relates to policy in Oklahoma. Right. And so because I'm in the state house, um, they expect me to communicate the stories that are available for them to report whether they take them or not. That's their prerogative. Um, I'm also the only male reporter on a team of seven of us and some of my coworkers, while I love them, don't have a very strong sense of accountability. And so for someone who spends all day in the state house, I get, get frustrated at times with that kind of, I guess mindset, like I don't want to call it lack of focus because they're focused on what they're focused on. And that's valid. Um, but I'm thinking of this kind of in context of, of Rachel's comment, right. About how, like the leadership styles of men versus women. Um, there are things that I know for sure that they could be thinking about that would help them, but I don't want to sound patronizing. And so I stopped myself and, and so I'm wondering about that dynamic. Right. And, and like, I just want to be helpful. So what I've started doing is just getting the committee schedules and putting them on the Slack channel. And just if they look at it, great, if not, great, but that doesn't feel like enough. I also see an opportunity to help the newsroom in ways that, that they don't even know that I could help them. Right. And so you guys are talking about like, if, if the job isn't there, create it. Right. Right. Um, I'm kind of in this weird position where if I say something that's too forceful or too, you know, whatever, however people interpret it, I'm patronizing, or I'm a guy that knows everything I think. Right. Right. Or whatever it is. Um, but if I hold back the work suffers and that's my particular context, I'm not saying that I am the solution to the newsroom's problems, not at all, but for some of them, I, that's why they hired me, I suppose. Right. So if you guys could discuss that dynamic a little bit in, in navigating those points of tension where someone says something that they didn't mean to be out of pocket, but someone takes it as such or whatever, and getting past that. That, to make the work better, the best that we can. I think about team dynamics and what works in a team and what doesn't, and maybe, maybe that's where you start with that group rather than starting with the high-end, heavy-duty, deep journalism thing, but more like how do we form a team relationship around things that are easier and maybe they're more interested in to develop that bond. And, um, and then you can get to the harder stuff because I think I, I, I sense, I sense your frustration and, um, and then also finding, you know, if it's a team, who's your editor and are there allies and, you know, I had some, we had some reporters who were concerned that we weren't talking enough about writing and I said, well, why don't, why don't you think about starting a writing group or something? And so they kind of put together a group. Found some allies and then the group became, it's, it changed. It had a life force of its own. It wasn't dependent upon that one person. And so, so maybe, maybe there are some opportunities there to find allies and, and work on team. Into a mindset, right? Like we can all shift into this mindset together rather than like, Hey, take it from me kind of thing. Right. Maybe it's other people in the newsroom get excited about it. It doesn't, you know, it, you'll take whatever wins you can take. Right. So we, we're creating an investigative team at the Star Tribune and we really didn't want to create this elitist sort of, we know what we're doing. And so we had a group, a work group come together from around the newsroom and make recommendations about what that might look like and how that might support accountability journalism across the room, not just in a special team. And in forming that group, we had people who volunteered from all over the room. We had a leader who came from the features department. She was in news and then features. She led the team. And this is the newsroom saying, we believe in accountability reporting. We don't like how we've seen it in some newsrooms. And here are some ideas that we have. We took that as leaders, turned that into a proposal, sold it and are now hiring in an editor and some reporters. It's going to take some time. So it's not like this is going to fix everything. This legislative right. No, but that is helpful because I've been brainstorming kind of on my own time. And one idea that I came up with is for your Fridays, just every Friday, submit one open records request if you can. And, and I think I'm going to pitch it because I've, it's something that we did at my previous job, which was only investigative long form stuff. And it helped my mindset, I think. And so that's a fun idea. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Systems are. Systems of doing things are way better than person-to-person if you have no relationship. Thank you all. This was really insightful. I wanted to speak. I mean, both of you can chime in. Oh, sorry. Monique Welch, Houston Landing. So I've been in your positions, Kendall, briefly with Maria, where I've had, you know, a female editor that I respected. I was in a position of like Rachel's, which you said, of kind of recognizing their biases or recognizing their blind spots and being open to hearing different perspectives. Um, but that was unfortunately probably the only time in my career that I've had that. And so now I'm in a position where, you know, I am the only, and it gets really burdensome, you know, to say the least. So, um, would love to, you know, the reality is there just aren't that many female leaders. And newsrooms; let alone, you know, journalists of color, there; you can just forget it. Right. Um, I'm curious to hear from you, like before, you know, you're blessed with Suki, right? Someone who was really open and was like, 'Hey, help me.' Or what do you see? Or, you know, uh, thinking of you and considering you before you had to speak up; what was that process like for you? Um, before you had someone who was open to receiving. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I, I always talk to folks who are only in spaces, um, that you need to, um, build your ally ship among peers. And so, um, the great thing about it, like Suki can be there on occasion. I can go to her, but like, there are things at that, at that level that she can't necessarily manage. If she dives down too deep, then, then it looks weird. Right. And so you have to sort of keep that kind of dynamic. So you, you know, I could go to her, but we actually had to come up with a solution that made sense. Like how can I do the thing that needed to happen to make that change? And so what I like allies, accomplices, like accomplices, like you want somebody who's going to be like right next to you doing the things. And so, uh, like. Yeah. So, um, George Floyd for us was like a perfect storm because we were able to actually say to management and to the guild that you weren't serving journalists of color, period. Both of y'all are at fault at this point, right? Like you haven't been paying attention and, and that allowed, and then I had this new job that allowed me to say that whole idea, like Suki was saying, like, if you see something, say something. Like you. You, in your role, and we basically try to teach people just to speak up and give people permission, like, please don't make the only person of color be the only person who says something. Like, if you are hearing it and it hits funny with you, then you have permission to say, that feels weird to me. And so I would make examples or, you know, in smaller groups say, like, hey, so-and-so said this or so-and-so said that, and that was great. And in meetings, if people, if, like, accomplices, like, raised their hand and said stuff, it would be a quick Slack message, thank you for saying something, I really appreciate you, I'm so grateful not to have to say it. And to the point of where, like, what happens in newsrooms is, like, you know, the people, the journalists of color in the meeting together, you're all on Slack and you're just like, I can't believe so-and-so just said that. What the hell? And they're like, who is going to, and then we're like, who's going to say something? Who's going to say something? And you're like, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I said, let's wait a beat and see who stands up. And literally, these two ladies were just like, no, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and let me tell you this. And I was just like, I said, see, they had our back. Sometimes we can't jump in right away. We have to let it, let it, let it, let's see who it is, right? Kendall did a thing where she tapped into the people in the newsroom who did want to see change. Lots of them were white people. Yeah, yeah. And they did the hard work. And we brought some folks in. We did some training. There was a, you created a hiring committee to change the way we hired, an internship committee to change the way that we recruit. And, oh, my God. These teams came up with amazing systems that I, I had no time to do this, right? Nobody did. So these were great, you know, just like these work groups that took responsibility and then said, we're pitching this. And then, you know, as editors, Renee and I could say, well, this thing right here, that kind of butts up against company policy. But what if we tweak it this way, right? So it became a process and a system. And it had people from all walks of the newsroom that were part of it. And so everybody was sort of able to step in and help and not say, oh, well, I'm just going to wait until she says something because I'm not going to say it. But I do think that Kendall did do the extra mile, which was going around and talking to people and saying thank you for including these people. Or she would see something like, 'Oh, a meeting is being held and somebody is not invited.' That happens all the time, you know, for good and bad. And it's like, hey, can you send an invitation to this person? I think she'd be good, you know. So so doing that work behind the scenes, I think, can pay off. Again, it's not immediate. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a long road to getting getting that healthy conversation. Because what what happens is there's a vulnerability piece. You know, nobody wants to be vulnerable. Nobody wants to be wrong. I mean, we're journalists, like you know, factors are real. Like we we believe in the truth. We want to make sure we're right. And and so sometimes right isn't is is squishy. And sometimes people are unsure because they have blind spots. And so they don't want to say anything because then they might look dumb or say something. That's often and then people will not like them anymore. And so so we had to get comfortable with the mess. And the work groups really helped with that because, you know, their focus is is inclusivity. And so we had to talk about all the trappings of how inclusivity doesn't happen. And what are what are those things? And so we were able to reveal a lot. A lot of stuff and people were able to talk about it, and then it's, and it didn't feel weird for people to bring stuff up after that. So if you can get your folks talking and being authentic and feel safe in that. So psychological safety. I would also say peers around the country, and you have them right. So, and you have this group here, which is a gift, like you will be friends forever. And, as Rachel was saying, this industry isn't that big, and I probably know someone in each of your newsrooms, right? And that's an advantage, you know, lean into that. And, and I think people do want to help each other, and they can also like they're not in your newsroom, not hearing the stuff. And so sometimes that's just much, much more helpful to have somebody who's outside. This is such a terrific example of how leadership grows exponentially when the leader supports other people in their orbit and in achieving their goals; and, and moving forward, we could stay here all day, but Suki's Glam Squad, I'm sure, is waiting at the Ritz. The twins. And your daughter is here, right? My twin daughters are here, my husband and I have a table full of the Suki posse is here. So. So. Um. I just think we have been inordinately fortunate to have the NPF editor of the year come and speak to the 2025 Widening the Pipeline Fellows, along with the head of culture and engagement of the Minnesota Star Tribune. So Suki Dardarian and Kendall Harkness, thank you both so much for it. Let's show them. Thank you, guys. Thank you.